The Couch Next Door
Happy Hour meets Therapy on The Couch Next Door. Each episode blends real conversations, laughter, and a touch of courage as we dive into life’s messy, beautiful, and downright unpredictable moments. From relationships and mental health to personal growth and everything in between, we’re here to keep it real, relatable, and refreshingly honest. Each episode is hosted by Candice Fraser, a licensed professional counselor with a distinctive approach to therapy and a mission to inspire and equip her audience through compelling stories and conversations within the mental health landscape. Candice's couch is a comfortable place to learn how to care for ourselves and those around us well. Come hang out!
The Couch Next Door
Complex-PTSD: the "Big T" and "Little t" Of It All (with Ally Hoffman Scott, LPC)
In this conversation, I introduce my new friend, Ally Hoffman Scott, LPC. We delve into complex PTSD (CPTSD), discuss the differences between big T and little t traumas, the importance of relationships in healing, and the impact of childhood experiences on adult emotional responses.
Safe Space Healing Collective
instagram: @safespacehealingcollective // Tiktok: @safespacehealingco // facebook: facebook.com/safespacehealingcollective
Split
What My Bones Know
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents
Atlas of the Heart
Braiding Sweetgrass
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Hi there, and welcome to the couch next door, where a happy hour meets a therapy session. I'm your host, Candace Fraser, a licensed professional counselor. Each week, I'm honored to have a friend come sit on my couch and we'll dive into an area of mental health that is impacting their world. We'll definitely laugh, probably cry, and maybe go on a rant or two, because we are all humans full of emotions. Come hang out with us. In today's powerful conversation, I'm joined by my new friend and just a doll of a human from Safe Space Healing Collective, Allie Hoffman-Scott. Together we dive deep into the layered world of complex PTSD, also known as CPTSD, and explore how it shapes our emotional responses. Allie Hoffman-Scott is an LPC, trauma-informed practitioner, and founder of Safe Space Healing Collective LLC. She holds a master's degree in counseling and has advanced training in somatic therapy, parts work, and mind-body integration. Ali blends evidence-based modalities with holistic practices to help high-functioning individuals heal from past trauma and reconnect with their most authentic selves. With a grounded presence and deep intuition, she creates a space where healing, clarity, and alignment can unfold. In this conversation, Allie and I unpack the difference between big T and little T traumas and why understanding that distinction matters. Allie brings not just clinical insight but personal experience to the table, sharing her own journey with CPTSD and the vital role that validation, authenticity, and safe relationships play in healing. We also tackle the often overlooked topics of misdiagnosis, the importance of independent thinking and mental health, and how therapeutic work isn't one size fits all. From the parts of self to the power of perspective, this episode is full of tools and insights that remind us healing is possible and deeply personal. And don't sleep on the somatic work. Learning to listen to your body's cues can completely change how you show up for yourself and others, building agency, resilience, and self-trust. If you're on a healing journey or walking with someone who is, this episode is for you. All right, y'all. Here's my conversation with Allie Hoffman Scott. I have Allie Hoffman Scott. That's a new addition to the name. She's got married on the couch next door today. Thanks so much, Allie, for joining me. I'm I'm looking forward to this conversation. I think I'm gonna learn a lot. So I'm very excited for you to be here today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to chat. I've nerd out on all things mental health, but it's also just nice to talk to somebody like-minded. So I hope we can get into all kinds of nitty-gritty good stuff and maybe even some giggles, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, absolutely. We will definitely be laughing. And we are joined by her two friends, um, Theo and Apollo. They are they're joining us in our chat session today. Um, so Ellie, tell us a little bit more about you and if you want to talk about, you know, your animals. I'm always up for a good animal chat too.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I'm a dog and duck mom, so I feel like that's kind of how I identify myself right now. So I got again, Apollo, Theo, both of them are German Shepherd mixes, and then I've got my three ducks, which I'll kind of like talk about in a little bit. But let me introduce myself first. I'm Alice Moffman from it's still weird for me to say the last, the extra last name, also. Um, but yeah, so I've been practicing for a little over five years. That does include my student internship and everything, but I focus heavily on clinical mental health counseling with those who have experienced trauma and more specifically complex PTSD. So smaller, um, and when I say smaller, I want to be careful about that, but lots of traumatic events through a smaller period of time, rather, um, that can kind of help you build a personality type in a way. So I'm sure we'll get into it more, but that's kind of my specialty. And anytime you are kind of in an awkward stage of life or don't really know where to turn, those are my types of people. So I hope that gives you a little intro on kind of the types of people I work with and what I do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, was there like was there a part in, you know, whether it was your education or even your internship where that either became a passion for you or you just sort of like fell into maybe your focus being on PTSD or specifically complex PTSD? How did you fall into that?
SPEAKER_01:So I would consider myself a product and a provider of therapy. The reason why I do this work is because I had to do it myself. So it's not just going to work for me, it's not just a job. I have a personal investment in it too. So I was in and out of counseling since I was about nine years old. Um, I like to say that I've been on both sides of the clipboard for those who kind of get that vibe or can get that visual. Um, I think that initially I didn't think that I was gonna be a therapist at all. I like to connect people, but that's not how I saw myself doing it. But it throughout my like college career and trying out different jobs, different things, I found myself, I was like, hmm, the way I need to connect with people and the way I need to connect others is in this very vulnerable space. So not only from personal interest, but also, hey, I think I can serve a purpose here.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's funny that you like I feel like I kind of fell into therapy um also on both sides of the the clipboard, but like didn't, you know, I'm a m millennial therapy. Was not something that my mom put me in. I think if it had been more of like a mainstream thing at that time, I probably should have would have been a therapy. But it's just interesting to think back like what my life looked like and how you know this career sort of found me, and I fell in love with it and can't imagine doing something else, right?
SPEAKER_01:I feel the exact same way. And I think that it was interesting going through school, a lot of my peers or like my people in my personal life are like Ali, you are you really gonna have people pay to talk to you? And I said, Well, that's really oversimplifying the situation, but yeah, I'm a talker, I'm good at that, but more so in guiding someone, it's not me just talking at anybody, it's talking with and to and working with and for even. So I always think that's kind of a giggle point, but I feel like honestly, our personalities are just kind of made for this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. It's yeah, for sure. And I think you have to have a certain personality to do this work as well. I mean, but that's probably a whole other conversation. All right, well, okay. So you talked about your dogs. Tell us about your gut your ducks. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, they are a new addition to the family. So I'll give you a long story short, we bought a house, had a wedding, got a new puppy, which is our newest edition, Apollo, got some ducks and just all the things, started my business all within a year. A little crazy, but the ducks are the newest family members. They got here two, three months ago. And the reason that I got them is because I'm a like avid gardener, and between them and chickens, I do want their eggs for sure, but also they're really good for the garden and they're easy to take care of. Here in Texas, it's hot, hot, so they handle heat and handle cold pretty well. But we have Luna, Willow, and then Indie. So they're all different breeds and okay, different colors.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I'm not a garden person. How are ducks good for your garden?
SPEAKER_01:Better than chickens because chickens will actually tear up your soil and they'll kind of tear up your plants. But the ducks themselves, first of all, okay, circle of life, but they fertilize really well with their them going to the bathroom kind of thing. Yeah. But they also will eat like slugs and snails, which happen to be the biggest predators in my garden currently. So chickens don't eat snails and slugs. That would be the biggest difference as far as like foraging is concerned. But again, they're a lot less hard on your plants, so their beaks don't poke so much in a weird way. Okay, okay. Love it. I have a lot of research, Candace. A lot of research because I was like, huh, I don't know what we're doing here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm I mean, I again not a garden person. So I am see, I told y'all I was gonna learn something. I'm already learning something. I'm learning how ducks are good for your garden. I won't probably ever have a garden, but in a trivia, if somebody says, What do you need in a in a garden with slugs? You need ducks, not chickens.
SPEAKER_01:And chickens are good too, but I think that they're just a little bit more like difficult to care for in the grand scheme of things. So ducks, they play in the water and stuff, and it's stinking cute. So I think they're a little more interactive and fun to watch.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So do you live like out?
SPEAKER_01:Do you have like where do you like do you have property or we live on about a half acre, and most of the lot is land rather than the house. We kind of did that on purpose. My husband and I starting our family. We both grew up in uh kind of like spaced-out homes. I grew up in a two-story home, kids' domain was upstairs, parents' domain was downstairs. But as we're building a family, I really wanted everybody to kind of congregate in a central location, living room, kitchen kind of thing. So um, with that being said, we use the half acre. I've got the garden. It's like a baby homestead, let's call it that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I love that. Oh, that sounds adorable. Ducks, dogs, garden, tiny home. Love it. It's so cute.
SPEAKER_01:Just cutesy tootsy girl in the corner.
SPEAKER_00:Cute. Okay, so you own Safe Space Healing Collective.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, ma'am, and I didn't lead in with that with my bio, did I? That's hilarious. I know.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's I mean, I'm but I'm the host, so that's my job. So tell us a little bit about that little baby of yours that you created.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. So Safe Space itself is more of a growth concept for a wellness center that I'd really like to build it um throughout the years. Right now, obviously, I've only got me and my intern right now. So she's actually starting her grad school in the fall. We're so excited for her. Um, but yeah, so with Safe Space, my idea is that we want to do a whole mind, body, spirit type of approach to healing. Not everybody's into talk therapy. So, what I want to do is offer some different modalities that are more approachable for people who may not be interested in the talk therapy side of things. So maybe more like trauma-informed yoga, acupuncture, things like that, where it's just kind of like a dip your toe in the water, try to see if you like it, but it's still a build-your own adventure kind of concept, which is how I run my therapy room. So, right now the focus is building my clientele, making sure that the quality of the business is absolutely top tier and just serving my clients with everything they need. Um, but yeah, so again, right now it's just me and my intern, but I work about three days a week seeing clients anywhere from 14 to 45, kind of.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow, nice, nice. I love that. I well, I love the idea of like that holistic, like whole self. Um, because like you said, talk therapy is not for everybody. And I tell people that, like, and I think people sometimes are shocked, well, yeah, that's what you do. Why would you say that? Be because it's true.
SPEAKER_01:It's our job to meet people where they're at. So if I'm gonna sit here and try to put you in a box, I'm already doing my job ineffectively.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I love that. I love that idea. I'm excited to see that grow because I think more places like that and people like you that have that vision and have that passion are so needed because it is, it is about meeting people where they are, and you know, I think that's priority.
SPEAKER_01:And there's a lot of like-minded people around here too. So I think it's just about leveraging those connections and really seeing how we can build a community within this larger like wellness space and kind of drippingslash like the hill country.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Love it, love it. Okay, all right, Allie. What is your rant for us today?
SPEAKER_01:I think I'd have to rant about groupthink, it's the vein of my existence currently. Oh.
SPEAKER_00:Tell me. I think I'm so excited. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:The independent thinkers, we need more of them. I like to give this as an example, and it's such a silly little story, but um, just to give everybody kind of a preface of what groupthink can be. I went to the river last year for my mom's birthday. Ironically enough, her birthday is coming up this weekend, so it really was exactly a year ago. But we were walking down to the river trying to find our little spot that we had secured, and all of a sudden everybody's kind of in a in a fit about like, oh my gosh, we can't find this table. Where's designated like table five? I don't remember what it was, but um, none of us could find it. And so everybody was kind of sitting there. We had people who were already at their tables kind of guiding us, or they're like, just take that one, it's fine, like nobody's there. Okay, well, and I'm sitting there, I was like, wait, but we have reservations, so I'm tend to be a bit of a rule follower. I was like, wait a second, let me just explore a little further. Everyone else in our group kind of just stuck there and was listening to these people, like, well, Allie, no, no, no, no, let's just go to this table. And I go, guys, just wait a second, let's see what we can do. So I walk over to the side and I find the stinking table. And all I could think to myself was, oh my goodness, had we kept listening and going along just to get along, we would have ended up like clashing with the people who ended up walking down to that table that was recommended to us. So silly example, but it's just like a unique thinker starting to go the other direction. I'm not even trying to toot my own ego here either, like myself on the back, but it's just one of those things where if you have an independent thought, it's like when the classroom, or like if you're in the classroom, they say like raise your hand, ask the question because somebody probably has it also. We need those courageous individuals to speak up. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, yes. Well, because if we I mean, if we look at the bigger problem of groupthink, I mean we could probably go on a whole whole path on that. Um, I mean, I you know, I think a lot of problematic cultural societal things have happened as a result of groupthink. Yes. And and we need to listen to the independent thinkers because I think sometimes, I'm not gonna say all the time, but I think a lot of times those independent thinkers, they're approaching it in a different way. And different doesn't mean wrong, right? It's just different and it's valuable enough to pay attention to. So I mean, yes, maybe that was a silly example, but it's a perfect articulation of if we just go along to get along because everybody's saying that's what we do, what kind of issues could come about? Like for this, it was just like a clash with the other people that that was their table. But what does that look like on a bigger scale? That's super problematic.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I think that some of us are even a little bit more timid. So it's kind of interesting. I've been noticing this pattern both in my clients as well, just in my personal life. COVID kind of I don't even want I'm gonna blame it. I'm gonna blame it for a second. I think COVID made us much more scared of each other than maybe was necessary, and it also hit at a really vulnerable time where, you know, I think that us as a United States are very divided and we want that sense of belonging, like every single human does. Like it's a necessary thing for each of us. But with that, though, there's all this shame bred. If you sit land somewhere in between and you don't fit in either of the boxes, and it's like, does that have to exist? Like, do we have to be judging it? Because those independent thinkers, that's how we have innovation, that's how we got the stink and light bulb was somebody thinking just a little bit different, right? Yes, so it's it's one of those things where it's if you have the independent thought, there's opportunity there. That's what I would say about it. And if we start to all be thinking the same thing, well, we're all just gonna kind of get stuck in this um echo chamber, for lack of a better explanation, where you're just hearing your same thoughts come back and forth. So it doesn't really challenge you to grow in any way, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, and I like I like how you describe like those those that maybe don't fit on one side or the other. I I very much identify with that. And so I think in in the past, I would judge myself for that. Like, well, do I even believe in anything if I'm if I'm like in the middle? But what I've been able to reframe that as it's made me way more curious, right? Like, because I don't necessarily fit over here and I don't necessarily fit over here, but it makes me ask more questions. Um, so that then I can figure out, well, then what is it? Like maybe I'm not gonna fit in either side of these, but but there may be parts of that, right? And that's okay. Absolutely.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think even if you're willing to say, okay, we can leverage those parts, and it's interesting because I'll talk about parts in a little bit. It's my favorite thing to talk about when it comes to trauma work. But it those you can use it and leverage it as a connection point. So I don't have to agree with everything that I like somebody is saying or the people that I come across, but it's more information for me to be able to make an informed decision about my values, my opinions, my approach, any of those things, which sounds maybe a little selfish, but also like we're all we're all individuals trying to operate in this world. So it's okay if you look at things a little different, and it's also okay to agree to disagree. And I think that's why groupthink is a bit of a problem, is because we've forgotten how to do that as a society, in my opinion. Um, and it just drives me a little baddie sometimes. So I know it's like a frustrated rant, but it's a it's a good one.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's good. That's good. Okay, so a couple things I hear, like to solve that problem. I know it's not really solving the problem, but be be curious, don't judge. Yes. Um, don't feel shame, right? And don't shame others. Um it's okay if you don't fit in a box. Anything else? What else did I miss? Like, how else do we fix this problem?
SPEAKER_01:Maybe don't superimpose your beliefs on someone else. We can teach, but I think come at it from an education standpoint and a hey, like just this is something that like, have you pondered on this at all? But it doesn't have to be you have to believe this or you have to buy in. And I think that a lot of times when we're trying to offer anybody anything, um, it doesn't really matter the topic, it could be religion, it could be politics, like those are the heavy hitters that people are really emotionally fueled by. But I think it just allows you an opportunity again to um approach it in a different way. And even if you don't agree with it, it's it's information.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes. Well, and I I just wrapped up my friendship season. And I think the thing that was so interesting is a lot of these friends that were very close had differences, like religious differences, political differences, maybe cultural differences. And that was one of the number one things they said is I love that we're different. Like it's this is like one of my favorite things of our friendship is that we're different and that allows us to learn from one another and it makes me better, right? And so, I mean, that was encouraging for me to hear because like if we just look at the headlines, that's not what's being highlighted. The differences are embraced and and make us better. It's the opposite. So yeah, I think that's so right, is yeah, like just we can complement one another and it not be conflict, right? Yes, yes, yeah, so good. Okay. All right, you ready to jump into our conversation?
SPEAKER_01:I think so. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_00:All right, okay, so Allie, I'm so excited to talk about specifically complex PTSD. I think more recently in the mental health world, and I think even mainstream, that topic, those words have been much more um used, right? Like, and I think we're understanding not only as mental health professionals, but uh just as humans, what that actually means. Um, and I know in in the talk of trauma, uh, there's a lot of misconceptions. Um, that word is a big word, um, but there's a lot of nuance to that. And so I'm excited for us to be able to talk really a lot about the nuances that uh make up complex PTSD. So just, you know, in your expertise, in the work that you do, can you just give us maybe a description or a definition? What exactly is complex PTSD?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think a good way to start with it is just describing PTSD and then adding on the complexity piece of it. So PTSD is often associated with an isolated event, one of those big traumatic things. And again, I'm gonna introduce some language here, which is big T versus little T. Um, my my my big T back there, my Theo, is making some noise. So you'll have to forgive him growling at the time.
SPEAKER_00:I don't hear yeah. So if you hear dogs, just know that they are just loving this conversation. It's like they're snaps. They are they are loving it.
SPEAKER_01:It is. Um, but with that being said, let's start with big T versus little T, and then I'll kind of dive into further PTSD and then C PTSD. So trauma itself is not what happens, it's how we respond to whatever the event was, right? So it's that emotional turmoil that we go that we might experience following a big event. Um, big T's are kind of more classified as these big catastrophic events, things that you would kind of gawk at and be like, oh my gosh, that sounds absolutely terrible. Granted, it's the individual's responsibility to name it, whether it be big T or little T, because the impact is how again you're feeling, not the actual igniting event. So, with that being said, the big T's are kind of like natural disasters, thing again, things you would gawk at. Making sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So, like when people think when people think of trauma, like that's probably what they're they're gonna think about, right?
SPEAKER_01:Right, exactly. Yeah, and it's it's that knee-jerk reaction is the it's the pictures that you see and the kind of the fantastical side of it that you see in media, things like that. Whereas some of those smaller teas are maybe more isolated experiences or unique experiences to an individual where it may not have bothered everybody or your, you know, everybody and their mother or your neighbor, but it's something that has stuck with you. So I like to offer some examples when it comes to little teas. Um one of my favorites is always stubbing my toe at an I hop. I kind of didn't like IHOP anyways, but it was kind of confirmation bias number one. But it's one of those things where I just tend to avoid breakfast houses in general because it's something that I have a bad association with. I think that's kind of a silly explanation of what I'm trying to explain here, but it's something that people can relate to, you know. Um but another example that I could offer would also be I have a like really, really strong um aversion to liquid medication. And that's because I had a little bit of a hard time taking it when I was a kid. So my parents almost, again, they were trying their best, but it was a little bit forceful sometimes. And so now if I have to take like NyQuil or Croft syrup or whatever, I'll kind of just double weight it on the countertop kind of thing. So little T's can come up as aversions, it can also come up as a flinch whenever you're going past a particular place that has a memory associated, things like that. Making sense about the small t's too or little ts?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The PTSD. I said that. So since we describe little T's and big T's, PTSD can be associated with either of those things. We can start to have those symptoms that show up. Um, flashbacks, nightmares, um, sweating, and just having anxious fits sometimes, maybe even a panic attack. We can have any of those things happen as a result of having PTSD. And again, I think a lot of people often will associate it with war times. Um, I think that's kind of where the diagnosis came from in the first place when I was in school. That was when it became really prevalent in naming it, right? And so then we have to kind of roll over to CPTSD, which I don't know if you're familiar with this, but it's not actually a designation and the diagnostic statistical manual, which is what we use as LPCs to diagnose clients. So in Europe though, CPTSD is a very popular diagnosis and it is in the ICD 10. Um, so in their diagnostic statistical manual. So it's kind of interesting. Diagnoses can sometimes to me feel like horoscopes because it's kind of like a broad stroke, and you're like, huh, I think I think that kind of fits me, but it doesn't always tell you what to do with it, whatever the label might be.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? Yeah. Right, right. Do you have any insight as to why CPTSD is not in the DSM?
SPEAKER_01:I haven't done a whole heck of a lot of research, but my best guess would be the fact that CPTSD could also be labeled PTSD. But again, the complexity piece means that there was um a lot of events that happened over a small small is relative because the problem is it's if you've experienced traumatic events without having healed from the first one. That's really what CPTSD is. Is if I haven't been able to reconcile all of the symptoms I'm experiencing from the one isolated event and then I'm experiencing another one, it makes it a lot more complex for your entire persona, especially when you're going through human growth and development. Every human does, and their specific milestones were meant to be meeting at any particular age, right? And so the problem is, is if you're experiencing traumatic events, really, let's say between ages five and seven, you're probably gonna have a harder time relating to some of your peers and building those social skills because you were really focused on just surviving in that moment rather than you know, living life like maybe somebody more traditionally would.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. So okay, so I want to make sure that I'm I'm understanding and that the listeners can understand. So if we're really looking at complex PTSD, it's would you like a simplified maybe version or definition of that is like a lot of little tease over time. And we have, and maybe we don't even recognize that it is a trauma, and they just build, build, build, build, build. And now we're starting to have these full-blown PTSD symptoms like panic attacks, heightened anxiety, those kinds of things.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And then in this particular case, it's harder to track back because you've had multiple moments where it could have that wound could have been created. So it's harder to address and harder to treat for that reason. And actually, CPTSD, the tagline is I haven't been loved right. And so, with that, um, the way CPTSD will often present is similar to a mood disorder. And so it's often misdiagnosed in that way. Um, again, we don't have a diagnosis here in the United States, so it's kind of doing a disservice to the individuals who are experiencing these symptoms here. Um, but I think that's why is because there's other labels that can be utilitous in reaching the same goal. However, I think being able to label something that is truly authentic to your experience is so, so, so important.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, and I imagine, I don't know, in your experience working with this with population of people that identify with that, like, is it sometimes even hard for them to know that they went through trauma? Because like, like there's it's just been so much over time that is it hard for them to even say, Oh yeah, I I I went through trauma.
SPEAKER_01:Without a doubt, a lot of times my clients that I end up uncovering this diagnosis with would be telling me throughout our experience together, like, hey, that's not like that's not a big deal, whatever. It just minimizing their own experience because they were, I mean, they went into survival mode from that point. So it's actually trying to assess the whole person. And if there, if there's a lot of defenses that come up, it's almost a persona that's built off of survival. So you see this in people who are really adaptable to different social situations, not somebody who's just personality-wise is out very outgoing, but somebody more who you're like, I don't know if that matches their true personality that I've seen in a private moment, but they're really, really vibing with these people. And sometimes that's more of a survival technique rather than a personality type itself. So does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:It well, it doesn't it? So, like, I mean, it it I imagine you would have to be seeing a client for some time to really even be able to pick up on that. I mean, yeah, you they might come in presenting as, oh, I have heightened anxiety, or you know, I've got, you know, my moods are all over the place. And so, you know, the in inclination may be to diagnose with a mood disorder, right? But as you start to unpack, like, oh, wait a minute, this is what your childhood looked like, or this is what this relationship looked like, it really starts to paint more of a picture of trauma, not necessarily a mood disorder. This is just their response out of the little T's that have been happening throughout their life. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:A hundred percent. And I think when we start naming it in that way where we validate the experience of that individual and speak to those different parts, and I'll explain what parts are in just a moment. But when we speak to those different parts of self, right, um, they're able to heal each of those individual parts moving forward and say, okay, well, so now I am this whole human. I didn't lose that part of myself because I experienced that hardship at that time. It's still skills that I can learn. So, for example, that five to seven-year-old that I mentioned a moment ago, they can still learn those skills later on, but it's gonna be something that first and foremost, like stages of change, we have to have awareness of what the issue is, and then we can start creating change and action items beyond it. So it is a lot of learning about my clients to start and then saying, Hey, I mean, that seems like maybe it was a bigger deal than you know, you playing it off or kind of laughing it off. So you want to get into that a little bit and tell me more? And then they start to have bigger emotions surrounding whatever that igniting event was, and we can kind of dive in from there. So also leveraging kind of a moments of impact timeline. I typically will do those pretty early on in um my therapy sessions with clients to help like identify the good, the bad, and the ugly throughout life.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Well, and probably having to point out like, hey, that maybe wasn't as okay as like or normal, normal, you know, um, I use in quotes, like. That that maybe you thought it was, there may be something else that was at play there and that may be contributing to what you're experiencing now.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And I think that something that I always want people to be thinking about is we have to grieve the things that we've lost in the same way we have to grieve the things that we never had. So if there's things that you were maybe lacking in your childhood, um, even emotional aptitude from your parents or that gentle, that gentle like approach, all of that can have a huge impact on how we are as adults. And then if you ever plan to have kids, I mean, you end up seeing so many sides of yourself that you didn't even know existed. Um, and so I really love working with parents as well, just seeing like, oh, wait, this is coming up for me. And then I kind of like this is how it translates for my parenting skills. And it's it's a hard experience for the individual going through it because there's grief and gratitude both at the same time. And I think throughout CPT CPTSD healing as a whole, there's so much room for both and feelings.
SPEAKER_00:Oh gosh. Yes. I'm really glad you said that. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, I want to get into like what working with these individuals looks like and speak specifically to like some of the specific treatments that you do in your practice. But and we and we've kind of talked a little bit about what symptoms look like, but can you because I imagine there's I mean, I know there's gonna be people listening thinking, oh my gosh, do I have this? Right, right. So what do people I mean, not only what do people need to be aware of within themselves, but I think maybe also like an aware of like the people that they love, what are certain things just to know that might might, we're not gonna diagnose people here on this podcast, but might allude to potential CPTSDs is happening here.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think that a big thing is is the relational component is taking a look at the individual's quality of relationships in their world. So it doesn't really matter the age, but I would take like as a support system, I would consider, hey, is this person receiving all of the best support that they possibly can? How do their friends show up for them? How am I showing up for them? And seeing, hey, you know, if they're having a big reaction in a moment where they've been let down, for example, if the crime doesn't match the punishment, we might need to remain curious in that moment. It's not an indicator immediately of, oh my gosh, that's what that is. But when we start to notice that again, crime is not matching punishment, meaning reaction is not matching igniting event, that's some of the cues that we can focus on. Specifically, though, again, focused on relationships. So it's if people um have experienced quite a bit of betrayal or something like that. It's hey, how did their support system show up and tend to that wound? Did they receive that? And if you're noticing, hmm, most of the answers to these questions I'm asking is no, or not not enough, or not quite, or the quality wasn't the best, probably something to consider a little bit more thoroughly. But again, these are, I mean, these are moments where you might be experiencing night terrors similar to playing out some of those scenarios with your loved ones or having very fear-based types of cognitions where it's, hey, I might be losing this individual when it's somebody who's just kind of exiting. So for example, um, I actually have CPTSD. This was a diagnosis that I received officially from my therapist about two and a half years ago, but it was something that I I never felt like my therapist got it quite right. I was like, I've been misdiagnosed a couple of times. It didn't like it never really felt like it fit for me. Um, but I was gonna offer an example here. So when my friend would leave the house, is my best friend, right? I would have kind of an emotional fit about it. And I knew internally, I was like, this is not I'm I'm in my 20s, like that's not a reasonable reaction. And I would talk about it because I'm a verbal processor, but I noticed I was like, what is this? What is the deal? You're not abandoning me. I know we're still like best friends when you walk out my door, but I have this huge like release of emotion when you go. And so what I I started to explore with my therapist, and she was like, Allie, what's going on there? And it was this huge wound of abandonment and betrayal that I experienced from pre previous friendships throughout middle school and high school. And so, I mean, those are some examples of what can compound to make the bigger personality, right? But you can just that as an example is like that that reaction doesn't quite match the situation.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right, right. And so recognizing that within yourself andor recognizing that within your loved one, right? Like that it doesn't quite match. And in, I mean, and in when you look at the bigger picture, there aren't other maybe symptoms at play that would allude to a a mood disorder or a different diagnosis that it's kind of isolated in particular maybe relationships, like what you're saying. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And to that point, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but I wasn't having states of mania. And there are three different diagnoses within bipolar disorder, but I wasn't really fitting in any of them. I didn't have the chronic depression in the way that it explained. Like I was very much responding to each of my igniting events or each of those wounds throughout my timeline that um I was even able to track back. And so in my work with my therapist recently, she was like, Allie, no, you're responding to specific things, and you can even tack back to like, no, this is why I'm responding this way, is because of that event way back when is still prevalent in my mind. So when you're able to do that, you you can make a lot more sense of your world. And to be fair, many people have a hard time accessing those memories because they're soft spots, they were wounds, right?
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. And so yeah, and not even identifying it as a trauma in the first place.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so when working with a therapist, we can s start to identify okay, is that traumatic? Is that something that I start to define my world with, or is that something that I start to um change my lens of how I'm seeing things or how I'm receiving things? If that happens, it's something to consider maybe exploring further.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Does it make sense? Yeah, no, totally, totally makes sense. Um, well, and so I mean, I how many times, how often are people being misdiagnosed? You know, and that's so frustrating. I hate that.
SPEAKER_01:I could go on another rant, my love, about the difference between what the job is of a counselor slash therapist versus psychiatrist versus psychologist. I think it's really, really important that we all familiarize ourselves with what their roles are and what purpose they serve because your therapist is the one who goes through all the nitty-gritty day-to-day stuff with you. Whereas a psychiatrist, you probably need to tell them your overarching symptoms and then be able to take that again kind of as let me say it this way. Maybe therapy is the neosporin, whereas psychiatry can be the band-aid. Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Does that make sense? Absolutely. Therapy actually heals the wound, whereas psychiatry kind of helps us on it for a while.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It helps us to protect the wound so that we can heal it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:For sure. I love that. I love that. That is that is a great explanation because people get very confused about those different um roles in mental health treatment for sure. I like that. I may, I may have to use that. You maybe need to like copyright that or something. That's so good. I love it. Um, okay, so those are the symptoms for people to be aware of that that that could be at play. So um, I know you mentioned talking about parts, internal family systems, um, and I know you do so. You tell me where you want to go here with this. So when you're working with individuals with with complex PTSD, how do you help them? I know that you do healing intensives, I know that you have a specific model in which you work with clients, but tell us what do you do for them? How do you help them?
SPEAKER_01:So, as I kind of mentioned earlier, I really like to start with clients kind of focusing on the whole person. So, whether that be going through the dimensions of wellness, so what does your environment look like? What does your social life look like and determining your satisfaction level there? Um, we can either start kind of that way, or I start maybe moments of timeline or moments of impact timeline. And then there's also the third component, which could be just building rapport, because you have to remember that 75% of the work that's done in therapy is based off of a positive relationship with your clinician. If you do not jive with your therapist, you are in the wrong room. I cannot stress that enough. Um, and it's not so much about like I have to love you as an individual, but you have to be able to work together and collaborate. That's really where the meat and potatoes is.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and feel safe, right? I mean, I think especially when I mean, not all the time, you need to feel safe with your therapist, but especially if we're talking about trauma, because there is no way in hell you're gonna be unpacking that stuff if you don't know with this person across from you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I think that's also why when I plug in the moments of impact timeline, I want to make sure that we're also focused on some of the glimmers and the things that went well in our world. Oh, that's true. Because we need to be able to hold space for that the dichotomy, the dichotomies of life, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's both and, like you said.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. And so in doing that though, we're starting to able to identify, hey, like here's some of the things that could have been going on that have led you to this point and led you to seek therapy. So that's pretty traditional, anyways, though, right? Like when we bring clients in for talk therapy, we're like, hey, what brought you here? Right. Oftentimes I'm just going a couple steps further back if people are willing. And I've had clients who have told me I don't care to do that. Also, fine. That's why therapy is a make your own adventure. Right. Um, oftentimes we end up having to look a little bit backwards and specific experiences, anyways, but we'll start there to kind of get just the full picture. And so I can really, really, really get to know my client from how they would tell their story, not how the world tells them that their story is. Um, so for example, oftentimes like I'll have clients, I want to explain what I mean by that is why.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I uh good, because I was gonna ask. So yes, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:Um You know, oftentimes we hear a lot of stories about our childhood based off of how other people experienced us, right? And so that becomes the narrative for which we write our life, right? Or that we reflect on things. So for example, um, one of the most of what I hear about when I was a kiddo, like right when I was born, is my colic and that I wouldn't stop crying for six months straight. I mean, it's unfortunate that that's the first thing on my parents' mind, but it's also why people leave Yelp reviews, is because if something was upsetting or disgruntling, that's when you feel the need to talk about it, kind of thing. So with that though, that's the narrative I have is oh my gosh, I must have been a terrible baby. I had colic, I was sick, I couldn't process lactose, it wasn't a big deal. But nonetheless, like it became I in my mind, I was like, oh, am I the problem child? You know, and I was like, oh, okay. But that's what I mean by other people can start to write these stories for us. Um, and again, notice like because that was the tone people are using, I didn't have the wherewithal to be like, okay, as new parents, that totally makes sense. Like, y'all are sleep deprived anyways, and now you have a crying baby that you can't console. As an adult, I can reconcile that. As a kid, I'm like, you didn't like me that much. You know what I mean? From the kid brain, it doesn't, it doesn't quite register. So um, that's kind of what I meant about other people's narrative super or kind of like becoming a part of your own. So in going and tracking through some of these memories, we get to build confidence in ourselves and our own narrative. So it's almost using a little bit of narrative therapy to inform the bigger picture of who you are as a person and who you want to become.
SPEAKER_00:Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And I like the like almost teaching clients how to not invest so much in how other people see them. Because that, oh again, we could it could that could be a whole other podcast episode, right? Like when other people tell us who we are, that becomes so confusing because that's depending on dependent on their experience of us. And they may have a different like person A is gonna have a different experience with me than person B. And so then who am I? Like then that becomes so confusing for us as humans. So yeah, we have to know who we are. But if we've constantly been told certain things from other people, that's who we think we are, and that's who our identity is, and that's where we hold our value, and that may actually not be true and authentic to us, right?
SPEAKER_01:And I think that this allows everybody's authenticity to shine through because they're getting to build trust in their own experience, and so even if people flub it up, right? Like, I don't know, we're not all storytellers. You get what I'm saying? Like, not everybody is adept to that skill, and that's totally fine. But again, being able to recount your own experience from your own perspective is so important in building trust with yourself too. Because even if you're like, well, am I remembering that correctly? If that's how you're remembering it, that's your story. You hear me? Right. And I mean, I'm not sitting here saying we need to agree with everything. Like, if you see something that's like, okay, that math doesn't math quite correctly, we can explore that further. But that's why perspective taking is so important, even in couples' work, just in therapy in general, is like, okay, so how do you think that that this person was experiencing it? And how are you experiencing it? And it allows for that locus of control shift, which is probably the biggest piece of work when it comes to CPTSD, is viewing the world more as here's what's happening and here's what I'm gonna do about it, rather than the world is attacking me. What am I? This is drowning me. It gives you more of a sense of agency and control over your outcomes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, no, that's really good. Which, you know, when I think about somebody that's gone through a lot of little T's, a lot of traumas, they don't feel like they have that sense of control over that. It just feels like all these things happened to me. Especially, I think, especially when they learn that that's their diagnosis and they want to do something about it. It's like, well, that feels really overwhelming because how far back do I have to go and what does that mean for me? And like, that's probably feels like a lot.
SPEAKER_01:I could imagine it feels like a lot. I also know it feels like a lot because I had to do the work too, you know what I mean? So yeah, it's hard because you're trying to validate your own experience, you're also still kind of consoling yourself throughout, and that's that modality. So you mentioned that I have a special modality that I work with, and it's comprehensive resource model. So it's a neurofeedback um type of modality where we're focused on tending to each of the wounds and identifying parts. So I'm gonna go into that just a little bit. I said I would mention what parts are. Um, so when I mentioned the moments of impact timeline, I mentioned also human growth and development. These two things are going to go hand in hand. If we experience a big event, whether that be a little T or a big T, it can actually stunt us a little bit growth and development wise at that age or in that cognition level. Right. So what happens is that's where a part might have been created. So there's a wound at that age. And what happens is, is it doesn't mean that you can't keep growing. I mean, obviously we all most of us turn into full-fledged adults, right? But it does mean that maybe the the emotional maturity that you were meant to develop at that age didn't quite land correctly. So we're not practicing the emotional maturity in the now. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. There may be some stunting that's happening when that trauma happens, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And so it's not, no, you're not stuck at age seven, but the way that you think about things might be more towards something that's a little bit more immature rather than the adult self that you're familiar with, right? So what that means is they're, you know, at each of these different various points, you can have a different part of self that's created. And a very fantastical version of this, if you've ever seen the movie Split, that's a disassociative identity dis diagnosis. That is a very extreme version of parts where these personas truly kind of come to light. Um you seen that movie, so that way I'm I haven't seen that movie.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I I understand the concept, but yeah, I'll I'll link it in the show notes. Maybe I should watch it.
SPEAKER_01:It's very fantastical, don't get me wrong, because the guy turns into kind of like a soup superhuman in a way. And with DID, you like with the different personas, you can kind of change your chemical makeup, but that's that's going down a different rabbit hole or something we don't we don't need to discuss. Yeah. But if you're thinking about like how do parts exist in this movie, there is a younger part of this guy, and his name is Hedwig, and you can tell when he goes into that part because he's very childlike and cutesy, and oh my goodness, his voice changes and all these things. So in the day today, those with CPTSD, we're not experiencing those types of shifts. But what might happen is, okay, so I get into maybe I'll use myself as an example again. Um, maybe I get into an argument with my mom, right? I know I'm a grown adult, I know I can handle my stuff, I've used all my tools, I know what I'm doing. If something touches on a soft spot from when we were about work, when I was about 15, kind of in my most angry part of self, ooh, I can feel it. And I feel that wrath come up. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, that doesn't belong to the adult self. That doesn't belong to this situation. That was something that came from back when, right? Yeah, yeah. It's a weird bodily sensation, but if your brain can catch it and you breathe for a moment, you're like, oh, okay, I don't need to react to that. I can respond in this moment, not be reactive. And again, that empowering sense of locus of control shift. I can do this instead of, oh my gosh, why did you make me react that way? Why did you provoke me in this way? Maybe the person did, but we all have agency over our reactions. So it's being able to say, oh, that's still valid. That wasn't just an unreasonable reaction.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And I know where it came from. And and I know reacting out of my 15-year-old self, that is survival, right? I mean, that was what you were doing as a 15-year-old, and you don't need you're not in survival mode as an adult self.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:But it's real, I mean, there's so much there, like that the awareness, and that's why it's so important to work with a therapist and to be educated on what that looks like. So I remember there have been times I've mentioned parts to clients, and they will like some of them will like just latch onto it. And then some are like, wait, but is that like multiple personalities? I'm like, okay, I get why you would think that, but no, this is it, so it can be really, it can be really hard sometimes for people to understand it. But it if you if it makes sense to you, it's so helpful.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And the disassociative identity, I think that if I were to call something out that's a telltale sign, you lose time. You don't remember what happens if you are in those different parts. And this is very different where you can feel a little dissociated when triggered, but you're not going to entirely lose time or track of what was going on. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yes, yeah. Okay, yeah. You're still aware, you're still you're still in the moment. You still are are experiencing what's right in front of you. It's not completely disconnected from reality.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And I think that's a large misconception, or anyways, like a large distinct like distinction between the two.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah. No, that's good. That's good that you included that. Okay. So in your comprehensive resource model, you work a lot with parts with clients.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So comprehensive resource model really does resource each of your parts. So for example, I keep speaking about this 15-year-old part of self in the work with CRM. It's a lot of, and by the way, I did say we're resourcing each part, but more than likely it's the client resourcing themselves. And again, that's reinforcing that same locus of control shift in the grand scheme of it all. So what we'll do is we'll kind of activate this part in a very, very safe way. So what CRM allows us to do is reprocess without re-traumatizing or re-experiencing. So it's a bit like EMDR in that regard, where you go through the event, but you are like with EMDR, you're using the tappers to kind of keep your body safe and sound. Um dare I tap into sympathetic versus parasympathetic nervous system in this moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, do it. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So I've been explaining this a lot this week. I think it's helpful, right? So um I know I'm kind of pivoting us, but this will this will help provide some context for everybody. Um, you know that nerve or that vein in people's people's forehead that kind of runs all the way down their face. That's your vagus nerve. And in polyvagal theory, that vagus nerve runs all the way down your body. And we can leverage that nerve in order to get us from our sympathetic nervous system into our parasympathetic nervous system. And I'm gonna explain what each of those are, but one is a stress response and one is more of your relaxation response to whatever igniting event you're experiencing. So the sympathetic nervous system is your fight, flight, freeze, appease, all of those different things where like S sympathetic think stressed, right? Yeah. And then parasympathetic, I want you thinking more relaxed, more like a somebody who's maybe paralyzed, for example. Maybe not the best way to remember that, but it's helpful, mnemonic, nonetheless. Yeah, yeah. But if we can get over to that parasympathetic side, that means that we can probably handle a lot more because we are in a relaxed state. Um, something to think about, just assessing your body, doing a little body scan. If you close your eyes, scanning tip to toes. If you feel any tension anywhere, that can be something that shows you, hey, I might be more in my sympathetic nervous system rather than parasympathetic nervous system. So just something to kind of try and practical skill. But the reason that I'm mentioning either of those two things is we can get our clients in this sympathetic or in their parasympathetic nervous system while experiencing the state of stress. So it becomes a new um, new connection point for this individual. It's no longer, oh my gosh, I feel so out of control. It's hey, I have the power to resource myself with XYZ tool to tackle said problem or to tackle these feelings or to help like resolve that within me. Is that making sense so far?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, right. So so if there's that trigger, they feel the ability to tap into their parasympathetic nervous system so that they can relax, get calm in their body and feel, like you said, that locus of control that they don't have to react, they can just respond.
SPEAKER_01:Right, because in this type of work, you are much more working in your mind's eye. And the whole point is to keep you in that parasympathetic state and to teach you how to how to read your body cues to say, oh my gosh, that's what's happening. And then again, taking that time to do the breath work, do the resourcing, using that tool to say, okay, I can regulate through this. And it's allowing your body and your nervous system to remember, hey, that might have been a stressful moment. Here's how we can tend to it. So again, it's building trust with that part of self that did not have that information at the time. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Well, okay, so let me ask you this how how important is uh is it for us to trust all of the different parts of ourselves? So, like that 15-year-old self that is reacting, that is feeling something, how important is it for us to trust her because she's telling us something?
SPEAKER_01:And absolutely imperative, in my opinion. I think that if any part of self is trying to share any type of message, for example, that means that something's bothering us and festering in our subconscious. So it kind of has to be addressed. Um there's a chance, like if so, let me say this, for example, if I ignored that anger, if I ignored that part of self, it's reinforcing that uh that same feeling that we're feeling, anyways, which is you don't matter, what you're experiencing is not important, any of that stuff. So if I ignore it, then I'm also being my own worst enemy, betraying myself in that moment when that part comes up. Does this make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, right. So we have to listen to that because that's part of the healing process.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and it builds the authentic human, right? So we are a product, like we are a collection of our experiences, right? But it's also our lens for which we see the world can either be maybe positive or negative based on those experiences. And if we can make new um associations with it, or at least the fact, like, hey, that was a bad experience, but you can still have opportunity to heal and move forward. Again, it's that reminder of, hey, things might have been bad in that moment, but we have bigger things to hope for, and it you do recover. It's almost being able to tell your younger self everything that they didn't know. That like, oh my gosh, hey, I own my own business now. Can you believe that? And it's like my 15-year-old self would be like, What? I didn't even think I was gonna make it out of this place, you know what I mean? Um make it to whatever age or whatever, what have you? So it's again allowing you to write your own story and building trust with yourself and saying, okay, so yes, that that reaction or that that response is valid, but it doesn't serve me as a whole human now as a healthy individual. Does that make sense? Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, it does. It does. So tell us about your healing intensives. What does that look like?
SPEAKER_01:So um, I mentioned those moments of impact timelines. Sometimes they take a little bit longer. So doing a 90-minute session can be helpful in those moments. Also, if we have a part that came up and they're experiencing large reactions and they're kind of activated, we can use those sessions to really like pack a punch in a good way, gentle way, gentle punch. Yes. Um but we can pack a punch and trying to make sure that that part feels well resourced and that they feel seen and heard because oftentimes those wounds, like you have to think about it. Kiddos don't have the language to support their experiences, right? So even when we're tapping into those parts of self, it can be hard to put language to it. So it needs a lot of time and space for processing. Not only that, but again, we don't want to re-traumatize anybody. So allowing them the space to resource throughout. What I mean by resource is tools, it can also be drawing on spiritual components like your higher power, things like that. Um, so it's just allowing a lot of time and space and flexibility to work with those parts and let any of your emotions come up because I think that many people can probably feel this. We don't make a lot of time for ourselves. And so those 90 minutes truly just allow you to drop in, have somebody hold space for you, and then be able to come back in a bit more of a regulated way and then re-enter the world. Um but yeah, so those 90 minutes are really, really special. And I can also do them uh like walk and talk sessions, things like that, where it allows people to immerse themselves in an environment that may be more comfortable for them rather than a virtual experience or sitting in an office space.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'm just even thinking, I know it can people can be very hesitant going into uh processing their trauma, right? I mean, first of all, sometimes they don't even know that that's really why they're they're here and may may take some time to get to that point. And like you said, even sometimes people will say, I don't want to talk about that. It's like, yeah, they're not they're not ready for that. So I imagine, you know, I I could see your role as just being somebody that, like you said, just gently trying to help them get comfortable first with the idea of even exploring some of this stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Right, because think about talking about it, but then trying to drop into your body and feeling it and starting to let yourself where maybe you shut that angry part off for so long, and it's like, oh, what do I do with this? It's almost like you have to build trust with yourself to say, hey, I'm allowed to feel that. It's a utilitous emotion. However, I also want to be acting right. You know what I mean? Right. It's like don't let don't let me get carried away with it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I feel scared if I let that part of myself be explored because what does that look like? I've never really allowed that part of myself out, so to speak, right? And that can feel really, really scary to to kind of open that can of worms, right?
SPEAKER_01:A hundred percent. And also, I mean, there's also parts of ourselves that we may shut off for survival, and it's like, oh, it's just intimidating to think about even touching the sadness, the anger, the hurt, whatever it may be. Even sometimes it's hard to feel the good feelings just for whatever that's worth.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, because we still have to feel joy.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, well, yeah, because if we shut off some emotion, we tend to shut off a lot of emotions. It's so hard to you can't really compartmentalize emotions. You can't fill them to the fullest if you're shutting them off in some capacity. Exactly. Yeah. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about authenticity in this work. Um, and and thinking back to even your, you know, you created Safe Space Healing Collective, like as a whole, sort of hell self, you know, we need to honor the whole self. So, how does authenticity play a part in healing and processing CPTSD?
SPEAKER_01:Authenticity plays, I mean, it is it's exploring your truth. That's what authenticity is, in my opinion. It's your truth, it's the truth of who your core self is. That super sparkle soul piece of who you are. I want to sound super romanticized, um, but it's okay to romanticize life a little bit. Plus, that's kind of the beauty of the experience is the fact that we get to feel all these emotions. So authenticity in my mind, again, adds truth to your own experience, it builds trust with self, it also allows people to receive you in a way. Again, it kind of fights the group think. Let's talk about that again.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Authenticity allows you just to be yourself. And again, reinforcing the same idea of if I don't, if I can't speak my truth, then I'm not ever going to be able to honor that. You know what I mean? Um, so if I never say, Hey, I love dogs, well, how is the world supposed to know that I love my dogs and my duckies? You know what I mean? And it's just being able to say, Hey, here's who I am. And despite whether or not we may be a good match in whatever facet that may be, as friends or like neighbors, whatever the case may be, this is who I am, and this is how I want to show up in this world. And I'm proud of that. And I think that's the biggest piece is that pride that comes with the authenticity. It's it's being comfortable in your own skin. And a lot of us don't start that way. There's a lot of outside noise that comes in, and it's really, really hard to be ourselves. I mean, we've all been through that awkward middle school stage and all those various experiences in life where maybe you didn't quite fit in, but I Do you like the little notion or the little quip and quirk that says um read or rejection is a redirection? I think that's really important for all of us to remember.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah. Well, and I'm even thinking like knowing knowing your 15-year-old self, that that part of you that is still there, that doesn't make who you are, right? Like we are made up of parts. Um, and and so knowing, honoring, understanding that allows us to know our truth, to be authentic, but also understand ourselves as a whole. Because we are complex people. Like as a human, we have a lot of complexities, and a lot of those complexities come from those parts. Um, but I know, I mean, and I see this with clients so often they'll identify who they are with that reactionary self, right? That like we're talking about the 15-year-old self. Like, that's who I am. It's like, no, that's just a part of you. Like, you are so much more than that. Like, there's so much more to you that makes up who you are. But it's so easy, especially going back to what you were saying, if that's been the narrative that's been told to you is you're reactive, you have a bad temper, you're emotional, right? Then then you think that's who you are, is that 15-year-old part of yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Which that spoke straight to my heart because that's a lot of the feedback that I would receive growing up. And no, I am a loud personality, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm too much. I mean, shoot, my husband's one to say, I'm okay. He'll keep me. That's right. Yeah. You know, and it's, I mean, you're not, you're not who you are on your worst day or your worst moment, whatever the case may be. You that's a moment in your life. It doesn't have to define you as a whole individual, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Uh, I love that. I think that like say that louder for the people in the back. Like, that is so important for people. Like, uh, if anything, if you take away anything, please really listen to that part because that I mean that plays a piece in everybody's life. I think it's so easy for us to identify ourselves on our worst day. And that is just, you know, that's that's not what makes us human.
SPEAKER_01:Like, that's not very human of you to have a bad day. Yes, it is a human experience. But I also think that's kind of the beauty of it, is we're we're the only being that feels to the depth and capacity that we do, other than maybe dolphins and whales. We'll leave them to the side for a moment. But it's that's the beauty of the experience of being a human, you know? And I like to I like the notion that we're spiritual beings having a human experience. So we are all come from this, like I'm gonna sound super hippie-woo-woo, but we all come from this place of like really love. That's where we were born bred from plenty of times. Um and then it turns into whatever the world happened, whatever's happening in the world, but it's reminding yourself that hey, you as a human are worthy just because you are here. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, how anybody else treats you? You are worthy of all the love in the world because you are curious.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, yeah. I love that. Okay. What would be your encouragement for somebody that is listening to all of this? And maybe they're identifying with some of the things that you're saying. Maybe they feel like they really need to explore this idea of is there complex PTSD at play in my life? What would you encourage them to do as maybe their first steps or next steps in just understanding that and exploring that in healing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think that just a willingness to take a look at your own background, your own history, and how you're showing up in the spaces and seeing, like taking a small assessment, saying, Hey, do I like this part, like do I like this version of myself that I'm presenting in this world? And if not, what could I potentially start to fine-tune to do a little bit better? Um, I think that just allowing yourself the like the availability to even take a look at yourself is something a lot of us don't do. So that would be my first place to start is giving yourself that pause to truly just turn inward and say, okay, is it am I proud of how I'm showing up in the world right now? Diagnose this or not. If the answer is no, it's something to explore and then you can start to journal a little bit. And that if you're not a journaler, that's more than okay. Not everybody is. Do a little video for yourself or like just do a voice memo, something that you can just come back to it, because sometimes we're in a stream of consciousness or whatever, because I mean, even in these dialogues, we're talking, we're vibing, but it'll be nice to be able to circle back and think back on some of this and listen back on the podcast and be like, oh, yeah, I really love how she said that, whatever the case may be. Um, or that hit different because of how it landed in that moment, yeah, for sure. And so just remaining curious with yourself. And then once you find something you want to learn more about, maybe start looking into finding a good fit for you if that's where you want to go, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Are there certain things that you would encourage people to look for in a provider, in a therapist, if complex PTSD is what they want to explore?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I think that finding the clinish a clinician that focuses specifically on trauma is absolutely imperative. Anything neurofeedback is really, really important as well. So with the EMDR type of modality, my biggest suggestion is finding something, some modality that is not going to make you re-experience the events and just making sure that you feel well resourced throughout. CRM is an example, it's not the only example. Um, and so it's it's also imperative that you get along with your therapist again. That I say that just feel safe, yeah. Yes, safe and heard and seen to feel comfortable to open up. Yeah, and talk about those really raw parts of life, because I mean whenever you get in, like we say things in therapy that you never say out loud before, and there's a lot of shame that comes with that, and it's just being able to be like, oh, okay, you didn't have a reaction. That's so nice.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, oh my gosh, yes. That that's huge right there. How important is somatic work when we're doing this?
SPEAKER_01:I think somatic work is important for everybody, even outside of the trauma component, but even more imperative for those experiencing trauma because it lives in your body, it lives in your nervous system. Your nervous system is ebbing and flowing and taking in information throughout the entirety of your life. And unless we tell it, hey, you don't have to be that stressed right now and teach it and remind our nervous system like, hey, there are times where that's necessary, but it doesn't have to be a forever mindset or a forever feeling. It allows you to flex a little bit more. So it also like tapping into that. If I have you ever tried meditation before by any chance, okay. Hard to do the first time, right? Really hard to like get your brain to focus on the breath work. Yeah. It's flexing that muscle and really working it so that way we can tap in fully. And so, for example, if you just as like take a deep breath in through your nose and out through your mouth. If it's rather short, probably could be a little longer. Your out breath should always be about twice as long as your in-breath. So even just focusing on that alone can really help to move you from that sympathetic nervous system back to that parasympathetic nervous system, that more relaxed state. If you don't know that your body can do that, if you don't know how to make it work in that way, it makes the job a lot harder. And then it's more likely that you will re-experience the trauma because you don't trust yourself to be able to relax that.
SPEAKER_00:Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. Well, and I think like speaking to what you said, somatic somatic work is important in any sort of mental health treatment, because some of that is just what is our body telling us? Because a lot of times our body's telling us something way before that we recognize what's actually happening. And so if we can give space and time to that work, then we're able to listen and give space to it and maybe, maybe like come to some conclusions that would help further our treatment in in certain ways, right?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And also, I mean, you think about it. You think about people who the runners like if if you've seen anybody run a marathon, like every once in a while, they'll have that big cathartic moment. People are like, why are they doing that? This is why. They're allowing themselves to release their emotion and tap into those parts of themselves. It's a very methodical piece of that practice. Yeah. Um, is it their goal every time when they're running? No, but it your body, when you ramp it up like that, it it also wants that release, right? It's the same thing as a panic attack. Your body goes up and it needs to decompress, right? So it's yeah, it's kind of interesting. You can do that, like I said, in a different way, other than just talk therapy, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. Allie, is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to cover before I ask our last question?
SPEAKER_01:I think we covered a lot. I know it's a lot of information. I hope it wasn't too confusing, but I think just allowing yourself again to look inward is really the biggest deal. And so even if the labels don't apply to you, just saying, hey, this bothers me, and because it bothers me, it freaking matters.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And yeah, and I want to do something about it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because I deserve that. Exactly. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm I'm gonna ask this next question in two parts, and I didn't prepare you for this, so we're flying by the seat of our pants. Okay, first, I want you to tell us how would somebody that's that maybe is identifying with these symptoms of complex PTSD, how would you encourage them to take care of themselves well?
SPEAKER_01:Pause.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Slow down because a lot of us in survival mode are simply flying by the seat of our pants, as you just said. When you take pause, you give yourself space. And I'm not saying like go turtle mode. No, I'm saying slow down, like breathe pace by pace, breath by breath. Even if you're driving, let yourself take in your environment, start to notice the street signs, start to notice the things that are passing you by along your way, and just let yourself take that in. Acknowledge it. You don't got to sit there and pause the car, stop entirely. But it's just saying, hey, that's something I haven't noticed before. And you can do that externally or you can do it internally. But I think slowing down in general is the biggest, biggest thing. And yeah, just adding a little pause.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Oh, I love that. Okay. Now tell us how you're taking care of yourself well these days.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think for me, my gardening is huge. Taking care of others as a caregiver is like we just do it. I don't know. But I think that taking care of something that then pours back into me is always a good thing. But between that and my skincare regimen and just letting myself enjoy the little baby homestead we have, I think that allowing myself to live in my quirks and live in my truth and say, hey, I'm a human who's showing up for other humans too. That's really how I take care of myself is reminding myself of my own humanity and then being able to show up for others. And again, on the authenticity, I always tell my clients, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna be very much casual. We're not gonna have the white walls feel like we're in a doctor's office, put your tie on, you know? Yeah. And so I think practicing what I preach is probably my best form of self-care because I gotta do the work so that way I can be there for others. And inherent, like I have to take care of myself in order to do my job. So any of the things, but most specifically all of the grandma hobbies, those really, really keep my life rich.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, well, like it's so important, I think, as therapists, for us to be able to practice who we are in the therapy room. Otherwise, the amount of burnout would, I mean, I couldn't do this work if I couldn't be myself and have like giggles and laughs and you know, be sarcastic sometimes. I don't think I could do this long term. I think I would have already been out if I couldn't be myself. So totally agree. Love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Totally agree. And I think that just yeah, we just have to practice what we preach. And I think that my versions of self-care kind of step away from more of the mental health side because I get so much of it in my work, you know. So properties are important for everyone, by the way.
SPEAKER_00:Keep you busy. Yes, yes, very good. Uh and it's a good way to take care of yourself because again, it reminds us of your our humanity. We're not just what we do or who we are to somebody else. Like, this is important to us, and so it's important enough to do it. Right. Yeah, okay. Well, Allie, thank you so much. Oh my gosh. Like, I knew I was gonna learn so much in this conversation. It was so good, it was so insightful. A lot of just a lot of nuggets of information here that I think is gonna be so helpful for people to be able to chew on and move forward and find the help that they need or the help that maybe their loved one needs. So thank you so much. Thanks for coming on and sharing all the things.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much for having me. I know sometimes it's hard to grasp some of the existential concepts and stuff, but I appreciate you holding space for it and always tapping in with a good question and anything. So I appreciate you having me. And yeah, thanks for having the pups too.
SPEAKER_00:Of course. They were a pleasure. They were, they were just, you know, they they just they were around. Yeah, yeah. Wow, what a powerful and deeply insightful conversation with Allie. I hope you're walking away with a little more clarity, compassion, and curiosity about your own healing journey and maybe a few pages of notes too. I know talking about internal family systems and parts work can feel a little overwhelming for some, but this work is so transformational when it can be integrated into your healing journey. I loved what Allie said about how we are not defined by a bad day. Gosh. I don't know about y'all, but that is something I needed to hear and be reminded of pretty often. And what about Allie's explanation of therapy as neosporin and psychiatry as a band-aid? Y'all, I'm putting that one in my back pocket for sure. If this episode resonated with you, please know you're not alone. Complex PTSD, trauma recovery, and reconnecting with your authentic self is hard work, but it's also sacred work. Whether it's understanding the role of relationships, somatic healing, or the many parts of yourself. Every step forward matters. A huge thank you to Allie for sharing her story and wisdom with such honesty. I told her after we recorded that she needs to be teaching this stuff. She was able to break down such broad, complex topics into nuggets we can actually digest and use. It was remarkable. And remember, healing doesn't happen in isolation. Find your safe spaces, your support systems, and keep showing up for yourself in whatever way you can. I hope this episode encourages you to stay grounded, stay curious, and take gentle care of yourself and those around you. If you believe you're in need of professional assistance, please reach out to the medical community in your area. The Couch Next Door with Candace Frasier was created by me, Candace Fraser, graphics by Jason Frasier, music by Josh Bissell. You can find the show notes and affiliate links on CandaceFrasierLPC.com. Click on the tab Podcast and you'll find all podcast-related content there. I'd love to connect with you on Instagram. Find me at Candace FraserLPC. Give the show a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. This really helps get the show to more listeners in the world, and I would be so grateful to see what you all are loving. Until next time, show kindness to yourself and those around you.
